Mr Do Nothing gets an award

[vurbano]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20091009/us_time/08599192939500


The last thing Barack Obama needed at this moment in his presidency and our politics is a prize for a promise.


Inspirational words have brought him a long way - including to the night in Grant Park less than a year ago when he asked that we "join in the work of remaking this nation the only way it's been done in America for 221 years - block by block, brick by brick, calloused hand by calloused hand." (See pictures of Obama in Grant Park.)


By now there are surely more callouses on his lips than his hands. He, like every new President, has reckoned with both the power and the danger of words, dangers that are especially great for one who wields them as skillfully as he. A promise beautifully made raises hopes especially high: we will revive the economy while we rein in our spending; we will make health care simpler, safer, cheaper, fairer. We will rid the earth of its most lethal weapons. We will turn green and clean. We will all just get along. (See pictures of eight months of Obama's diplomacy.)


So when reality bites, it chomps down hard. The Nobel Committee cited "his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples." Some of those efforts are faulted by his critics - those who favor a missile shield for Poland or a troop surge in Afghanistan or a harder line on Iran. But even his fans know that none of the dreams have yet come true, and a prize for even dreaming them can feed the illusion that they have. (See the top 10 Obama-backlash moments.)


Maybe the prize will give him more power, new muscle to haul unruly nations in line. But peacemaking is more about ingenuity than inspiration, about reading other nations' selfish interests and cynically, strategically exploiting them for the common good. Will it help if fewer countries come to the table hating us? To a point. But it's a starting point, not an end in itself.


At this moment, many Americans are longing for a President who is more bully, less pulpit. The President who leased his immense inaugural good will to the hungry appropriators writing the stimulus bill, who has not stopped negotiating health-care reform except to say what is nonnegotiable, whose solicitude for the wheelers and dealers who drove the financial system into a ditch leaves the rest of us wondering who has our back, has always shown great promise, said the right things, affirmed every time he opens his mouth that he understands the fears we face and the hopes we hold. But he presides over a capital whose day-to-day functioning has become part travesty, part tragedy; wasteful, blind, vain, petty, where even the best-intentioned reformers measure their progress with teaspoons. There comes a time when a President needs to take a real risk - and putting his prestige on the line to win the Olympics for his hometown does not remotely count.


Compare this to Greg Mortenson, nominated for the prize by some members of Congress, whom the bookies gave 20-to-1 odds of winning. Son of a missionary, a former Army medic and mountaineer, he has made it his mission to build schools for girls in places where opium dealers and tribal warlords kill people for trying. His Central Asia Institute has built more than 130 schools in Afghanistan and Pakistan - a mission which has, along the way, inspired millions of people to view the protection and education of girls as a key to peace and prosperity and progress. (See an interactive guide to Obama's first 100 days as President.)


Sometimes the words come first. Sometimes it's better to let actions speak for themselves.

[msmith198025]

Lol, did this really need a whole different thread?

[iceturkee]

hey, can you tell he is REALLY upset about this?

[msmith198025]

hey, can you tell he is REALLY upset about this?

Lol, Glad to see ya back Ice:)

[Bob Haller]

So HAPPY too see verb unhappy that his president got a nice award.

news last nite said it might have been more a statement of what the commitee thought of the last president bush:)

in any case its a nice award ............

[Derwin0]

news last nite said it might have been more a statement of what the commitee thought of the last president bush

To make the award a statement pretty much cheapens the award for past recipients who have actually done something. ie. MLK, Ghandi, etc...

I know you have a hardon for Bush, but to make those peoples real accomplishments into nothing but a statement is wrong. If Nobel knew it would come to this, he would have never set up the award.

[bruce]

To make the award a statement pretty much cheapens the award for past recipients who have actually done something. ie. MLK, Gandhi, etc...

Gandai never received the Nobel Peace Prize, he was killed in 1948 before he was to receive it, so it was awarded to no one that year.

[iceturkee]

To make the award a statement pretty much cheapens the award for past recipients who have actually done something. ie. MLK, Ghandi, etc...

I know you have a hardon for Bush, but to make those peoples real accomplishments into nothing but a statement is wrong. If Nobel knew it would come to this, he would have never set up the award.


my 2 cents......obama didn't deserve it, and neither did bush. my comment about bill clinton was made to illustrate my point about the criteria, or lack there of, they are now using. i think clinton was more deserving than obama but hardly deserving of receiving the award.

[Bear Paws]

my 2 cents......obama didn't deserve it, and neither did bush. my comment about bill clinton was made to illustrate my point about the criteria, or lack there of, they are now using. i think clinton was more deserving than obama but hardly deserving of receiving the award. The Dalai Lama might have been a good choice. That might have advanced the cause of social justice ....even if at first only for the Tibetans. I won't rant on how our kumbaya president of the world wanna be snubbed him.

[vurbano]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/10/10/feehery.obama.nobel/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

even CNN knows this is absurd

[vurbano]

hey, can you tell he is REALLY upset about this?

"he is upset" because this is just a ploy by his communist brethern to help him get support in turning this country socialist. Its quite obvious.

[Bob Haller]

"he is upset" because this is just a ploy by his communist brethern to help him get support in turning this country socialist. Its quite obvious.

thats insane communism does not work..........

why would obama and democrats try to change our country to a known failed system

[Bear Paws]

thats insane communism does not work..........

why would obama and democrats try to change our country to a known failed system
We dunno Bob, we dunno. Ask him and his czars.

[vurbano]

my 2 cents......obama didn't deserve it, and neither did bush.

Once again the commies cant make a post without the word BUSH in it.

[fallout2600]

thats insane communism does not work..........

why would obama and democrats try to change our country to a known failed system

Bob, I'm going to go out on a limb here and agree with you. Anyone who believes Obama is trying to implement communism needs to get their head examined. Obama is simply paying off the unions and pissing off the middle class, while doing nothing about everything else. If that is communism, then what the hell is failure?

[vurbano]

thats insane communism does not work..........

Its they way to utterly wreck the economy and create a people 100% dependent on government. Every liberals wet dream.

[Bear Paws]

Bob, I'm going to go out on a limb here and agree with you. Anyone who believes Obama is trying to implement communism needs to get their head examined. Obama is simply paying off the unions and pissing off the middle class, while doing nothing about everything else. If that is communism, then what the hell is failure? Well.. he and his crew are slowly (?) enabling the unions to become the "state" and encouraging the taking over our means of production, propaganda, and our welfare. Which is a recent change since Unions in the US has traditionally been part of the majority tax paying middle class. However, now we have more than 50% and increasing rapidly (read health care etc.) of the population that benifit more from the "state" than they contribute to it. Not to unlike or dissimilar from a commune.

[fallout2600]

Bear, didn't you quote "paranoia" in another thread? :)

The US of A didn't go communist under FDR and they won't under Obama. The govt simply believes this is the way to handle major recessions b/c all those Harvard grads are Keynesian economists.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Keynesianism.htm

They truly believe it will fix the problem faster than any other solution.

Do I? Hell no, I say let the free market rip....

But to say we are going communist is insane!!!!! Turn off Rush, Hannity, and Beck, they are merely propaganda outlets....

[msmith198025]

I dont say turn em off, I say watch them all, then form your own opinion. Some simply really do believe the scenarios that they get on those shows.
Personally, I think it is somewhere in the middle (or a mixture) of what you get on CNN, MSNBC, and Fox. I do not think that Obama is trying to impliment communism, but there are things in place that are moving us closer to a socialist society. On purpose or not.

[Bear Paws]

Bear, didn't you quote "paranoia" in another thread? :)

The US of A didn't go communist under FDR and they won't under Obama. The govt simply believes this is the way to handle major recessions b/c all those Harvard grads are Keynesian economists.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Keynesianism.htm

They truly believe it will fix the problem faster than any other solution.

Do I? Hell no, I say let the free market rip....

But to say we are going communist is insane!!!!! Turn off Rush, Hannity, and Beck, they are merely propaganda outlets....

How would you decide whether a country is Communist? Why not go to the expert? Would you take the word of Karl Marx? In the Manifesto of the Communist Party, Marx set forth a list of ten steps (http://www.greaterthings.com/Constitution/Associates/10Marx_planks.htm) to Communism. Marx said a country that takes those ten steps is Communist.

So, how many of those ten steps have we taken in the United States? We have taken nine and 1/2. For instance, The State government has long since taken control, both direct and indirect, of the land. The State has installed a graduated income tax. The State has taken control of the nation’s money and credit. The State controls the nation’s education. All these things are planks in the Communist program.

The State controls the movement of its people,The State controls the media and persecutes those that criticize The State, The State dictates life style and decides peoples career paths. The State even gets some revenue now from owning and controlling the means of production. The only thing Washington has not adopted is the fourth plank entirely: “confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.”
Are we there yet?

[fallout2600]

How would you decide whether a country is Communist? Why not go to the expert? Would you take the word of Karl Marx? In the Manifesto of the Communist Party, Marx set forth a list of ten steps (http://www.greaterthings.com/Constitution/Associates/10Marx_planks.htm) to Communism. Marx said a country that takes those ten steps is Communist.

So, how many of those ten steps have we taken in the United States? We have taken nine and 1/2. For instance, The State government has long since taken control, both direct and indirect, of the land. The State has installed a graduated income tax. The State has taken control of the nation’s money and credit. The State controls the nation’s education. All these things are planks in the Communist program.

The State controls the movement of its people,The State controls the media and persecutes those that criticize The State, The State dictates life style and decides peoples career paths. The State even gets some revenue now from owning and controlling the means of production. The only thing Washington has not adopted is the fourth plank entirely: “confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.”
Are we there yet?

Seriously? Do you actually believe that?

Then why does the USA always rank in the top 10 freest countries in the world?

Are you actually saying that every country is on the verge of communism then?

How much longer is the hard core right-wing going to attempt to scare people to the voter's booth?

[msmith198025]

Seriously? Do you actually believe that?

Then why does the USA always rank in the top 10 freest countries in the world?

Are you actually saying that every country is on the verge of communism then?

How much longer is the hard core right-wing going to attempt to scare people to the voter's booth?

There are shades of truth to what Bear posted, but again, I do not think we are near where it seems just from that post.

[fallout2600]

There are shades of truth to what Bear posted, but again, I do not think we are near where it seems just from that post.

It is all about perspective, we are no where near communism and we sure haven't taken the 9th step....

Sure, there are shades of truth, if you pick at anything long enough you can find similarities. It's the hard-right's fixation on it that bothers me. Eventually you have to stop the propaganda and illustrate another solution. If you walk over to your boss and bitch about something you are just bitching. If you walk over to your boss and present him with a better solution, it is likely to catch his ear.

A lot of the stuff Obama is doing is the same stuff Bush was doing, so, to say the current president is a communist would imply Bush was a communist. It just doesn't add up. It is a scare tactic being pushed most notably by Rush and Fox.

If anything, Obama is expanding the welfare state....but Bush did that too!!!

[msmith198025]

It is all about perspective, we are no where near communism and we sure haven't taken the 9th step....

Sure, there are shades of truth, if you pick at anything long enough you can find similarities. It's the hard-right's fixation on it that bothers me. Eventually you have to stop the propaganda and illustrate another solution. If you walk over to your boss and bitch about something you are just bitching. If you walk over to your boss and present him with a better solution, it is likely to catch his ear.

A lot of the stuff Obama is doing is the same stuff Bush was doing, so, to say the current president is a communist would imply Bush was a communist. It just doesn't add up. It is a scare tactic being pushed most notably by Rush and Fox.

If anything, Obama is expanding the welfare state....but Bush did that too!!!

I can agree with most of that.

[Skyhi]

Bear, didn't you quote "paranoia" in another thread? :)

The US of A didn't go communist under FDR and they won't under Obama. The govt simply believes this is the way to handle major recessions b/c all those Harvard grads are Keynesian economists.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Keynesianism.htm

They truly believe it will fix the problem faster than any other solution.

Do I? Hell no, I say let the free market rip....

But to say we are going communist is insane!!!!! Turn off Rush, Hannity, and Beck, they are merely propaganda outlets....

Post of the year. Thank you. If only the politicians were able to disagree without constantly playing the fear card.

[DodgerKing]

Seriously? Do you actually believe that?

Then why does the USA always rank in the top 10 freest countries in the world?

Are you actually saying that every country is on the verge of communism then?

How much longer is the hard core right-wing going to attempt to scare people to the voter's booth?
I do to a certain extent. I did not become conservative until I started working for the public school system. The state control of curriculum, career paths, nutrition, ex is something to be concerned about. The union's control (of which I am forced to pay into) over the political landscape of the school system is even more frightening.

[msmith198025]

I do to a certain extent. I did not become conservative until I started working for the public school system. The state control of curriculum, career paths, nutrition, ex is something to be concerned about. The union's control (of which I am forced to pay into) over the political landscape of the school system is even more frightening.
Which is part of the reason I said there are shades of truth. :thumbup:

[vurbano]

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=109486


CZAR WARS
Obama's team 'socialists with communist backgrounds'
Prof with ties to radical White House associates says president understands socialism

[vurbano]

http://www.examiner.com/x-13430-Sarpy-County-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m9d3-Communist-Party-support-for-ObamaAdviser-claims-CommunismHope-and-Change-from-Communist-book


Communist Party support for Obama;Adviser claims Communism;"Hope and Change" from Communist book....

[vurbano]

http://community2.myfoxdfw.com/_Obamas-Communist-Mentor/blog/782645/78592.html?b=


Obama's communist mentor

[vurbano]

http://hubpages.com/hub/Top-7-Marxist-Communist-Policies-Being-Implemented-By-Obama-Today


Top 7 Marxist Communist Policies Being Implemented By Obama Today

[froggigger]

It is all about perspective, we are no where near communism and we sure haven't taken the 9th step....

Sure, there are shades of truth, if you pick at anything long enough you can find similarities. It's the hard-right's fixation on it that bothers me. Eventually you have to stop the propaganda and illustrate another solution. If you walk over to your boss and bitch about something you are just bitching. If you walk over to your boss and present him with a better solution, it is likely to catch his ear.

A lot of the stuff Obama is doing is the same stuff Bush was doing, so, to say the current president is a communist would imply Bush was a communist. It just doesn't add up. It is a scare tactic being pushed most notably by Rush and Fox.

If anything, Obama is expanding the welfare state....but Bush did that too!!!

Don't write off Bear's points as scare tactics so easily. We've been vulnerable to what Reagan called "creeping socialism" for a long time. Add in varying degrees of collectivism, redistribution, and covert Marxism and it's not that hard to see some form of communism in our distant future. One thing that differentiates Obama from Bush is that Obama has been surrounded by admitted Marxists/Communists almost since birth. Obama himself said to judge him by who he surrounds himself with, and his surroundings are less than stellar. He is driving left with the accelerator floored, and he's doing it very overtly.

What scares me more than anything is that our education system doesn't teach the historical truth about Communism any longer. You know the old saying that those who don't learn from history are destined to repeat it. Well, we're on a course to repeat history because our schools fail to remind our students of the terrible truth of Communism's history. Communism doesn't scare students who have heard very little about purges, famine, killing fields, show trials, etc. Plus, basic economic differences are barely covered between capitalism and communism. Communist economies simply do not work, but how many students are made aware of that fact? Apparently very few because one of Obama's largest bases of support was college campuses. Obama was mentored by Frank Marshall Davis, was friends with domestic terrorist Bill Ayers who admits to having Communist leanings, surrounds himself with the same, and no one seems to care because they just don't get it. Ignorance is bliss.

Will we end up full-blown Communist in the future? Dunno. I can only hope the people open up their eyes and head to DC with pitchforks sharpened before we reach that point. One thing is for certain, though. I will not outright dismiss the possibility. It's wise to always look over your shoulder to see what is creeping up behind you.

[fallout2600]

Don't write off Bear's points as scare tactics so easily. We've been vulnerable to what Reagan called "creeping socialism" for a long time. Add in varying degrees of collectivism, redistribution, and covert Marxism and it's not that hard to see some form of communism in our distant future. One thing that differentiates Obama from Bush is that Obama has been surrounded by admitted Marxists/Communists almost since birth. Obama himself said to judge him by who he surrounds himself with, and his surroundings are less than stellar. He is driving left with the accelerator floored, and he's doing it very overtly.

What scares me more than anything is that our education system doesn't teach the historical truth about Communism any longer. You know the old saying that those who don't learn from history are destined to repeat it. Well, we're on a course to repeat history because our schools fail to remind our students of the terrible truth of Communism's history. Communism doesn't scare students who have heard very little about purges, famine, killing fields, show trials, etc. Plus, basic economic differences are barely covered between capitalism and communism. Communist economies simply do not work, but how many students are made aware of that fact? Apparently very few because one of Obama's largest bases of support was college campuses. Obama was mentored by Frank Marshall Davis, was friends with domestic terrorist Bill Ayers who admits to having Communist leanings, surrounds himself with the same, and no one seems to care because they just don't get it. Ignorance is bliss.

Will we end up full-blown Communist in the future? Dunno. I can only hope the people open up their eyes and head to DC with pitchforks sharpened before we reach that point. One thing is for certain, though. I will not outright dismiss the possibility. It's wise to always look over your shoulder to see what is creeping up behind you.

I am writing off Bear's constant comments that Obama is communist and we are heading in that direction. It is unfounded and propaganda.

Look, I got no problem with educating the mass on communism. I agree with you there. But why is it not taught in school anymore, probably because it is no longer a threat. The biggest threat America faces at the moment is becoming a full blown mob rule democracy, which is NOT communism. Our Founders were philosophers and studied every form of govt. They knew and warned against full democracy in which 51% rule 49%. It becomes mob rule and you end with the fringe elements driving policy. Which if look hard enough, you will see that is exactly what has happened in the 21st century America. We just went from hard-right to hard-left. We are no longer a Republic, we are a Democracy.

So, to all the Beck/Hannity/Rush "drunks" that listen to him spew their charlatan rants of communism, you are wrong. Welcome to the 21st century American democracy, where chaos rules and authority is dead!

Same goes for the Olberman/Maddow "drunks" that spew the vile hatred of the left with their sarcasm. They are also wrong.

Rant over...........

[Bear Paws]

[QUOTE]It is all about perspective, we are no where near communism and we sure haven't taken the 9th step....
With all due respect there Fallout. That's the understatement that proves my point. First lets establish what I call Communism. Its really Marxism. What you and many envision as Communism is really a bastardized aberration of Marxism... There is Marxist governance and there is the classical USSR, China, North Korean, South East Asian Communist way of life. What happens is in order to fully implement Marxism you have to have a Communist way of life system. Because people will not willingly live under full Marxism for long.

Most, including yourself, having never seen something so intangible like "communism" other than what limited information and description you may have been subjected to by the very people advocating Socialism/Communism, E.g. the Teachers unions and news media as refereed to by DodgerKing, someone on the front line. Speaking of front lines, as you know have I seen the devil's evil up close and personal from within the bowels of the Communist mother country and her step-children and dealt with the politico dregs called commissars and the hopeless proletarians willing to die to get away from it..


From Lenin's perceptive you are correct. From Thomas Jefferson's perspective you are a card carrying Commie. When you have Hugo Chavez cheering us on saying keep up the good work becoming like him and you have Vladimir Putin warning us not to go down this road pointing to his countries disastrous experience with Communism. Even for naysayers it should it be difficult to deny those experts.


Sure, there are shades of truth, if you pick at anything long enough you can find similarities. It's the hard-right's fixation on it that bothers me. Eventually you have to stop the propaganda and illustrate another solution. If you walk over to your boss and bitch about something you are just bitching. If you walk over to your boss and present him with a better solution, it is likely to catch his ear. BY that your saying that free market democracy is a failure and we need to change it and Socialism/Communism is the answer because we on the "hard-right" e.i. anticommunists can't present you with a better solution? What the hell are you looking for? Some sort of more comprimise? I've watched the comprimise for the last 66 years. There is no "sort of" "slightly" "partially" form of Communism. Its a Progressive disease like alcoholism.
THere is no such thing like a little bit of communism. If your a little bit pregnant today you will be a lot more pregnant tomorrow.

A lot of the stuff Obama is doing is the same stuff Bush was doing, so, to say the current president is a communist would imply Bush was a communist. It just doesn't add up. It is a scare tactic being pushed most notably by Rush and Fox.

If anything, Obama is expanding the welfare state....but Bush did that too!!!
I again refer to what you said. To paraphrase; THe truth is there are shades of Socialism/Communism also. Progressiveness is a shade or form of Communism. Its statism with out the peoples revolution. Just because we don't as of yet have steel fences around our country to keep the people in and all descent is dealt with in gulags and death camps by a totalitarian leader doesn't mean there is no shade at all. Welfare (the guarantee of not having to contribute to society) is the hall mark cornerstone of socialism and when the inevitable collapse occurs because the few can no longer support the many, then communism is the next progression. Its the easiest to transition to. Going back to freemarket democracy is the hardest. Just look at Russia's plight.

No... Bush was not a Communist. He was a Progressive. A corporatist statist without the people's revolution.

[froggigger]

I am writing off Bear's constant comments that Obama is communist and we are heading in that direction. It is unfounded and propaganda.

We'll just have to disagree on this. I do not believe it is all unfounded. There are too many facts that would indicate otherwise.


Look, I got no problem with educating the mass on communism. I agree with you there. But why is it not taught in school anymore, probably because it is no longer a threat. The biggest threat America faces at the moment is becoming a full blown mob rule democracy, which is NOT communism. Our Founders were philosophers and studied every form of govt. They knew and warned against full democracy in which 51% rule 49%. It becomes mob rule and you end with the fringe elements driving policy. Which if look hard enough, you will see that is exactly what has happened in the 21st century America. We just went from hard-right to hard-left. We are no longer a Republic, we are a Democracy.

So why are kids not taught that the early settlers lived under a "to each, from each" type of economy and that it failed miserably? Why aren't kids taught that the Great Emancipator was a racist?

"There is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." --Abraham Lincoln

Schools for the most part are now teaching to an agenda. The state is getting their hands on the kids at ever earlier ages and are raising their brand of education above all others, including the family. The kids are being indoctrinated and many parents don't even realize it. Whoever controls the minds of the young will control the future. That's why the evils of Communism are barely touched in the classroom. Kids won't be afraid of something they know little about.

I also disagree with your assertion that we're now a democracy. The 17th amendment got us a lot closer to democracy, but we're not full-blown yet. When the Electoral College is abolished and the President is elected by direct vote, then we will be a full democracy. Notice I didn't say "if".


So, to all the Beck/Hannity/Rush "drunks" that listen to him spew their charlatan rants of communism, you are wrong. Welcome to the 21st century American democracy, where chaos rules and authority is dead!

Same goes for the Olberman/Maddow "drunks" that spew the vile hatred of the left with their sarcasm. They are also wrong.

Rant over...........

Lots I could say but enjoy this rare occasion. I ain't gonna say anything more. :Shh: :)

[Bear Paws]

"In the 20th century, the Soviet Union made the state’s role absolute. In the long run, this made the Soviet economy totally uncompetitive. This lesson cost us dearly. I am sure nobody wants to see it repeated.

Nor should we turn a blind eye to the fact that the spirit of free enterprise, including the principle of personal responsibility of businesspeople, investors and shareholders for their decisions, is being eroded in the last few months. There is no reason to believe that we can achieve better results by shifting responsibility onto the state.

And one more point: anti-crisis measures should not escalate into financial populism and a refusal to implement responsible macroeconomic policies. The unjustified swelling of the budgetary deficit and the accumulation of public debts are just as destructive as adventurous stock-jobbing."

- Vladimir Putin, Prime Minister of Russia, February, 2009.

[stevenl]

Don't write off Bear's points as scare tactics so easily. We've been vulnerable to what Reagan called "creeping socialism" for a long time. Add in varying degrees of collectivism, redistribution, and covert Marxism and it's not that hard to see some form of communism in our distant future. One thing that differentiates Obama from Bush is that Obama has been surrounded by admitted Marxists/Communists almost since birth. Obama himself said to judge him by who he surrounds himself with, and his surroundings are less than stellar. He is driving left with the accelerator floored, and he's doing it very overtly.

What scares me more than anything is that our education system doesn't teach the historical truth about Communism any longer. You know the old saying that those who don't learn from history are destined to repeat it. Well, we're on a course to repeat history because our schools fail to remind our students of the terrible truth of Communism's history. Communism doesn't scare students who have heard very little about purges, famine, killing fields, show trials, etc. Plus, basic economic differences are barely covered between capitalism and communism. Communist economies simply do not work, but how many students are made aware of that fact? Apparently very few because one of Obama's largest bases of support was college campuses. Obama was mentored by Frank Marshall Davis, was friends with domestic terrorist Bill Ayers who admits to having Communist leanings, surrounds himself with the same, and no one seems to care because they just don't get it. Ignorance is bliss.

Will we end up full-blown Communist in the future? Dunno. I can only hope the people open up their eyes and head to DC with pitchforks sharpened before we reach that point. One thing is for certain, though. I will not outright dismiss the possibility. It's wise to always look over your shoulder to see what is creeping up behind you.

You seem to confuse communism with totalitarianism (word?). As an economic system did not cause killing fields, show trials etc. Heck they may not of even caused the Famine. A corrupt totalitarian regime could certainly of been the cause. So if you want to teach kids the truth by all means, but lets make sure its the truth and not anti-communist propoganda. I mean afterall You described China pretty well in your post, with the famine killing fields show trials etc. But they certainly are not communists. They embrace captialism to an extreme.

[Bear Paws]

You seem to confuse communism with totalitarianism (word?). As an economic system did not cause killing fields, show trials etc. Heck they may not of even caused the Famine. A corrupt totalitarian regime could certainly of been the cause. So if you want to teach kids the truth by all means, but lets make sure its the truth and not anti-communist propoganda. I mean afterall You described China pretty well in your post, with the famine killing fields show trials etc. But they certainly are not communists. They embrace captialism to an extreme. I think you are the confused one...Communism can only exist under a totalitarian regime. No country or even colony ( like the original Pilgrim Colony) ever existed under a communistic economy with out totalitarian form of governance. The corruption comes from the absolute power required to enforce the forced labor. Although it generally starts out voluntarily it soon turns out there are more decedents and dissatisfaction with the system than there are willing contributors. That's why every Communist regime has a fence (real and/or virtual) around it. And believe me, its not to keep people out although it functions that way also to keep the populace from outside influences and knowledge.

Under communist economies there is no "we the people" other wise the system would collapse into a democracy and the the ruling powers would be ousted.

China is in a transitional period between Maoism and true free market democracy. It requires a robust capitalist system to bring a country so long stagnated in 20th century communism, since Chiang Kai-shek a nationalist was exiled, into a free market again. On only needs to look to Taiwan (Formosa) to see what China was before the Communists "took" power.

[fallout2600]

[quote=fallout2600;41976]With all due respect there Fallout. That's the understatement that proves my point. First lets establish what I call Communism. Its really Marxism. What you and many envision as Communism is really a bastardized aberration of Marxism... There is Marxist governance and there is the classical USSR, China, North Korean, South East Asian Communist way of life. What happens is in order to fully implement Marxism you have to have a Communist way of life system. Because people will not willingly live under full Marxism for long.

Most, including yourself, having never seen something so intangible like "communism" other than what limited information and description you may have been subjected to by the very people advocating Socialism/Communism, E.g. the Teachers unions and news media as refereed to by DodgerKing, someone on the front line. Speaking of front lines, as you know have I seen the devil's evil up close and personal from within the bowels of the Communist mother country and her step-children and dealt with the politico dregs called commissars and the hopeless proletarians willing to die to get away from it..


From Lenin's perceptive you are correct. From Thomas Jefferson's perspective you are a card carrying Commie. When you have Hugo Chavez cheering us on saying keep up the good work becoming like him and you have Vladimir Putin warning us not to go down this road pointing to his countries disastrous experience with Communism. Even for naysayers it should it be difficult to deny those experts.

BY that your saying that free market democracy is a failure and we need to change it and Socialism/Communism is the answer because we on the "hard-right" e.i. anticommunists can't present you with a better solution? What the hell are you looking for? Some sort of more comprimise? I've watched the comprimise for the last 66 years. There is no "sort of" "slightly" "partially" form of Communism. Its a Progressive disease like alcoholism.
THere is no such thing like a little bit of communism. If your a little bit pregnant today you will be a lot more pregnant tomorrow.
I again refer to what you said. To paraphrase; THe truth is there are shades of Socialism/Communism also. Progressiveness is a shade or form of Communism. Its statism with out the peoples revolution. Just because we don't as of yet have steel fences around our country to keep the people in and all descent is dealt with in gulags and death camps by a totalitarian leader doesn't mean there is no shade at all. Welfare (the guarantee of not having to contribute to society) is the hall mark cornerstone of socialism and when the inevitable collapse occurs because the few can no longer support the many, then communism is the next progression. Its the easiest to transition to. Going back to freemarket democracy is the hardest. Just look at Russia's plight.

No... Bush was not a Communist. He was a Progressive. A corporatist statist without the people's revolution.

Bear, with no doubt I have complete respect for your bio. Your stories don't come anywhere near my life experiences. But, concerning communism is America, I disagree and to call me a communist is rather crazy. I think you misinterrupt a lot of my post for support of Obama. They are not. That being said....

Let me further explain.....America has fallen into the same decay that happened to Rome. Moral decay is at a all time high. Mass consumerism has led to mass materialism which has led to massive debt. We allowed a central bank to destroy our dollar and take control of some our largest assets. Jefferson wanted a democratic republic that remained small. We have done the complete opposite since the tyrant Lincoln ruled. Instead we haven't created a huge central state with central planning, but, it still can be checked by the power of the people. That is where we are different than any version of communism and why I disagree. The people fell asleep for years and became slaves to the welfare state. But for the most part, at the end of the day, we have remained free.

The scary part comes in now, in which a near full-blown democracy is in play. Democracy will result in tyranny for the 49% until the pendulum swings and reverses. It is a vile mob rule architecture. Fortunately, America's constitution keeps most things moving at a snail pace. Why do you think Obama is pushing shit thru, or at least attempting to at record speed? B/c it is only a matter of time before the system begins to check him and slow him down. Yeah, we currently have crony capitialism, instead of free market capitalism. But the cronyism will fail, just as communism naturally failed on its own. Systems that don't work eventually fail. The good thing is we are watchng the cronyism fail before our eyes. If the Fed Reserve has any power left by the end of the year, I'd be surprised.

Also, since the bailouts, the working class is starting to push back. The central govt is becoming more and more illegitimate each day to the working folk that pays their taxes and mortgage. This is where I think people become disillusioned with the idea that we are turning into communist because it is pounded into their head by the hard right talking heads. This is also why I say authority is now dead, the more the working folks start to feel that the leaders are working against them, the more a silent intellectual revolution will build. I see it where I work, some of the best workers are now saying No. They realize that their work isn't appreciated and they can operate like some of the people that do half the work and get paid the same. This is where the revolution will take place. Eventually, people may just begin to walk away....

We can agree to disagree from here on out on the notion of communism....I think the 2 party system has failed us and is controlling their base thru fear and the threat of communism is one of those fears.

[Skyhi]

What is your bio, bear? Besides fighting communists in combat, where does your expertise come from? I'm not being condescending...just curious.

[fallout2600]

What is your bio, bear? Besides fighting communists in combat, where does your expertise come from? I'm not being condescending...just curious.

I was referring to all his posts about combat and his family's origins when I said bio.

[bruce]

What is your bio, bear? Besides fighting communists in combat, where does your expertise come from? I'm not being condescending...just curious.

Bear used to be a spook...no joke.

He has posted about it many times at the old Pit at Sat.Guys.

[Derwin0]

Bear used to be a spook...

All the sudden I keep hearing "Bear the friendly ghost, friendliest ghost you know" in my head. :)

[msmith198025]

All the sudden I keep hearing "Bear the friendly ghost, friendliest ghost you know" in my head. :)

:free-happy-smileys-

[Bear Paws]

I was referring to all his posts about combat and his family's origins when I said bio.I was born 1943 in NYC to two Hungarian immigrants that independently fled their home for the freedoms and opportunities of the United States. My mother fled in 1939 to escape the war. She caught the last train out of Budapest as it was being bombed. Through Yugoslavia to the Adriatic Sea.

My father fled Nazis conscription in 1938 when Hungary formed a unholy alliance with Hitler in exchange to regain some of it's territory lost after WWI and to defeat the USSR and Communism. Prior to 38 Hungary was a quasi communist country under Moscow's control as the Hungarian Soviet Republic with the Comintern Party as the controlling party. He hated the Communists but he hated the Nazis more.

1950 My parents bought a 110 acre with a 21 room Inn in the Berkshires from their employer Camp Graylock for no money down.. Most of our guests from NYC had numbers tattooed on their forearms. I heard a lot of stories and a lot of crying.

I became a Ham in 1955 at 12 and eventually at 15 I got a Extra Class ticket with a code speed of 50 + wpm.

My dad died in 1960 and and when it came time my draft classification was 1-Y sole surviving son.

When I was 20 ( summer 1962) I was approached by a relatively new Government Agency, the DIA. I was recruited as a contractor and sworn in on Friday 10 hundred hours November 23, 1963. After training at Bolling Air Force Base, the Defense Intelligence School, Fort Bragg Spec Ops and SERE at Benning and I was assigned (loaned) to the NSA.

In late 64 for the next 3 years I was sent to Vietnam as a Combat ready Tactical Intelligence Recon field operative. My missions are pretty much declassified now. I with a faithful companion Montagnard (Minh, whom I named "Jay" after Jay Silverheels [Tonto]) monitored the trails in the Cambodian Beak area at 1-2 month stretches observing NVA and VC movement and called in strategic air strikes with high speed burst code to a NSA operated mother ship stationed in the Mouth of Mekong in the South China Sea. . I got a some holes in me a few times. Once bad enough to spend a month at Reed in late 67. We don't get medals. Just a hand shake, a thank you, once from Pres. Ford, and the offending projectiles (bullets and shrapnel) to put on your mantle.

After Nam, in 68 I was brought back to DIA, and reassigned to Eastern Europe, specifically Hungary and Russia as a facilitator. My primary operation was to infiltrate, ascertain, contact, and recruit high value dissident assets and facilitate them and often their families escape to the west. I often spend several months at a time slinking around in the USSR, Hungary and East Germany. I can't divulge my cover but it was NOC (Non-official cover) with a major farm implement manufacture with a deer as their logo. Vladimir Putin was my counter part of sorts in the late 70s.. I knew who he was but thankfully he didn't know who I was. His job was to hunt and eliminate guys like me. As you can see we never met.

I might add ..the reason I was targeted for recruitment is when I took my selective service physical they knew I could speak read write Hungarian fluently and they already knew I held a FCC license. But first they needed to battle harden me with the easy stuff I guess.
I resigned in 1979 because of the Church Committee and Carter. That's another story but suffice too say they neutered us and my job became dangerous..

While at home for the patch job at Reed I started a trucking company with a partner in 1967. I helped operate it in between my adventure assignments, and just sold it in 2003.

Hows that? Any more information and I might have to .......:)

[stevenl]

Bear used to be a spook...no joke.

He has posted about it many times at the old Pit at Sat.Guys.

No he is white.

[Bear Paws]

No he is white. You sure? I wrote a quick bio for the nosy previous page.

[stevenl]

I am certain you are white.

[Derwin0]

I am certain you are white.
From the bio, he's Eastern European, Hungarian (Magyar), or possibly Gypsy (Roma) to be exact. Not to mention 2nd generation immigrant.
But definitely not Anglo-Saxon or Aryan (aka, typical white).

[Bear Paws]

More likely he's Eastern European, Hungarian (Magyar) to be exact. Very good.. My parents where Magyaroks from Magyarorszag. I'm an American of Magyar descent.

[stevenl]

so hes white. When you fill out the "race" part of a form you check white.

and cant a guy make a racist joke without you being so critical ;)

[Bear Paws]

so hes white. When you fill out the "race" part of a form you check white.

and cant a guy make a racist joke without you being so critical ;)What? You never heard of black Hungarians?

[stevenl]

Not with a southern accent ;)

[Bear Paws]

My dad half jokingly called himself a Czigan (Gypsy). I really don't know if he was serious or not.. He played a violin like a gypsy. Piano too. Never knew a note. He didn't even know the strings names but he could make that thing cry. His thing was hum a few words and he could bat it out. I asked him once to teach me to play. He said "I don't know how to play, how can I teach you". He had the ear. That's a missing gene in my chromosomes.

[Bear Paws]

Not with a southern accent ;)Who? You heard my voice. You hear southern?

[stevenl]

A hint of it yes. You must of gatherd that from the truckers.

[Bear Paws]

A hint of it yes. You must of gatherd that from the truckers.?? Your ears must have a southern accent. My normal speech patten is typical New England WASP.

Because I speak different languages and my life depended on it's authenticity I'm very aware of my accents and they are very language specific. I'm not saying they are manufactured but they are intentionally controlled through learning as a patten for the specific language . As is the colloquialism I use. It would not do for a Hungarian to start speaking broken Russian with a southern accent.
Trucking? We talk differently on the CB I agree. We have like a twang in the voice. Its just a persona we develop for recognition.

A lot of guys that go down south for training pick up the southern infliction. Even being in Georgia and NC I never did.