Cap & Trade: Clean Energy vs. Cost to Consumers

[HD MM]

How much will our energy rates go up if this passes?

How long will it take cap and trade to have a beneficial effect in the switch to renewable energy sources and not just remain, in effect, a large regressive tax?

Any thoughts on this....

http://www.aier.org/research/commentaries/1608-cap-and-trade-will-cost-consumers

[stevenl]

Cap and trade must die.

[froggigger]

How much will our energy rates go up if this passes?

How long will it take cap and trade to have a beneficial effect in the switch to renewable energy sources and not just remain, in effect, a large regressive tax?

Any thoughts on this....

http://www.aier.org/research/commentaries/1608-cap-and-trade-will-cost-consumers

The cost will be far more than the government will ever admit. MIT and IPCC estimates assume enforcement for the climate policies will be optimal for all major governments and for at least 100 years. Buried within the IPCC report:

It is important to note that for the following reported cost estimates, the vast majority of the models assume transparent markets, no transaction costs, and thus perfect implementation of policy measures throughout the 21st century, leading to the universal adoption of cost-effective mitigations measures, such as carbon taxes or universal cap and trade programmes…. Relaxation of these modelling assumptions, alone or in combination (e.g. mitigation-only in Annex I countries, no emissions trading, or CO2-only mitigation), will lead to an appreciable increase in all cost categories.

Then it gets worse. The studies assume government will use cap and trade proceeds efficiently. Calculated cost is considered deadweight loss. Revenue from auctioning off carbon permits is not included in the cost of the program. Cost is considered to be the forfeited goods and services due to the economy emitting a smaller amount of CO2.

Then you have to consider government will not change its ways. It will spend more than it would otherwise with the added auction revenues. The deficit will not be reduced, labor taxes will not be lower, etc. Practical costs will be far higher than the lowest estimates and government will waste far more than estimated. It's what they do. The debate is totally politicized and both sides play loose with the facts. The real threat is not global warming. It's government becoming even more powerful in the name of global warming. This is not about "saving the planet". It is about money and power.

[HD MM]

Q: In a time of recession, how is an increase in energy bills, where everyone will be effected be a good idea?

[Bear Paws]

Our goose is cooked.

http://ct5.pbase.com/t2/66/635166/4/65691726.n44qLLgB.jpg

[vurbano]

Q: In a time of recession, how is an increase in energy bills, where everyone will be effected be a good idea?


Cap and trade must die.

Hey its your Boy Obama behind it. And if you think it will just affect energy bills then you are a fool. Obama's goal is to bring down this economy any way he can and make us all dependent upon the government. :augentreher:

[HD MM]

Hey its your Boy Obama behind it. And if you think it will just affect energy bills then you are a fool. Obama's goal is to bring down this economy any way he can and make us all dependent upon the government. :augentreher:

I don't blindly follow everything our Prez stands for like a Fascist would. There are certain aspects of each of our former Presidents that I agree and disagree with. Some more so than others.

[vurbano]

I don't blindly follow everything our Prez stands for like a Fascist would. There are certain aspects of each of our former Presidents that I agree and disagree with. Some more so than others.

You voted for him not me. He made no secret about what he would do if allowed into office and you still voted for him.

[Madtown HD Junkie]

Cap and trade must die.

I agree with Steven....:05:

[HDRoberts]

I really wish Obama would push more nuclear power.

Reliable, cheap, and carbon free power. Can produce as much power as coal plants cheaper than solar or wind. Unlike solar and wind, not dependent on the weather.

Why not?

Oh, yeah, these nutjobs:
http://www.nirs.org/photogallery/roadsrailstourimages/kansascity.jpg

[dkellumw]

I really wish Obama would push more nuclear power.

Reliable, cheap, and carbon free power. Can produce as much power as coal plants cheaper than solar or wind. Unlike solar and wind, not dependent on the weather.

Why not?

Oh, yeah, these nutjobs:
http://www.nirs.org/photogallery/roadsrailstourimages/kansascity.jpg

I also wish Obama would push for nuclear power, but he's not going to.

It's because these nutjobs voted for him and he needs to keep their vote.

[stevenl]

Nuclear power is the most expensive form of energy availible.

The problem with it is the waste. They have made great strides in figureing out a solution for that and I do think more money needs to be pumped into research to figure out the best solution.. Then I have no problem opening them up accross the nation.

If we can convert 80% or more of our energy making to Nuclear/solar/wind/hydro imagine all the coal and Natural gas we can use for transportation

[HDRoberts]

Nuclear power is the most expensive form of energy availible.

The problem with it is the waste. They have made great strides in figureing out a solution for that and I do think more money needs to be pumped into research to figure out the best solution.. Then I have no problem opening them up accross the nation.

If we can convert 80% or more of our energy making to Nuclear/solar/wind/hydro imagine all the coal and Natural gas we can use for transportation

Nuclear is expensive on a capital basis, but requires cheap fuel. Fuel only runs a half a cent per kilowatt hour.

If we spent as much on nuclear research as we do on fuel cells, I'm convinced nuclear waster wouldn't be a problem. In fact, if Yucca Mountain get's going, it wouldn't be a problem now, either. Just too many NIMBYs.

But I'm not sold on compressed natural gas for fuel for cars. Besides, natural gas won't be around forever, either. And it isn't carbon neutral, either.

[stevenl]

Its not so much the building and the fuel. Its the waste. The waste lasts forever, and storage costs for millions of tons of nuclear waste will be very expensive.

And Yucca mountain does not eliminate the problem of nuclear waste. It only hides it. (Great idea though to put tons and tons of nuclear waste in a volcano!!!)

[HDRoberts]

Its not so much the building and the fuel. Its the waste. The waste lasts forever, and storage costs for millions of tons of nuclear waste will be very expensive.

And Yucca mountain does not eliminate the problem of nuclear waste. It only hides it. (Great idea though to put tons and tons of nuclear waste in a volcano!!!)

Yucca Mountain is an extinct volcano. I have no worries it will erupt. Besides, with research, in 1,000 years or less we can probably refine the waster into something less harmful.

How is storing the waste that expensive? It doesn't seem to be a huge cost now.

[HDRoberts]

Heck, it seems Westinghouse has already developed a reactor with waste that can be stored in water on site indefinitely.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09088/959091-96.stm

[stevenl]

Waste is the biggest cost of Nuclear Energy production. Think about it. The energy made today youll be paying to store for the waste for the next 10000 years or more

There are many things in the works from the reactor you mention to the reprocessing of spent fuel etc.. Pump money into these systems figure them out then I am all for opening up the nuclear power plants all over

[froggigger]

Waste is the biggest cost of Nuclear Energy production. Think about it. The energy made today youll be paying to store for the waste for the next 10000 years or more

There are many things in the works from the reactor you mention to the reprocessing of spent fuel etc.. Pump money into these systems figure them out then I am all for opening up the nuclear power plants all over

A reactor is refueled by its waste. That is, almost all waste can be recycled. Around 95% of a spent fuel rod is natural uranium. Uranium was found in the ground and it can be put back in the ground. The radioactive part makes up only 5%, and half of that 5% can be recycled as fuel, specifically mixed-oxide fuel. The French have been doing this for 25 years now. After all these 25 years, the French store all their "waste" in one room under the Hague. The room is about the size of a basketball gym.

I bet you're wondering why you have never heard this before. It's another Carter-era screwup. There was a book published in 1974, The Curve of Binding Energy, that became very influential. It convinced Carter and others that plutonium could be stolen from nuclear plants to make bombs. It ain't true but solely on the basis of this misinformation, our country now has fifty thousand tons of nuclear "waste" that our government won't allow nuclear plants to reuse.

DOE policy is not to reprocess a highly reusable product, and there is no good reason for the policy. There is also no reason for Yucca Mountain, a very costly project. Don't forget, too, that nuclear "waste" is used in medical isotopes. Isotopes that we currently are forced to import because we are not allowed to use our own. It's lunacy. We're the only country in the world that doesn't recycle its nuclear byproducts, and nuclear energy is light-years ahead of any other energy source in cleanliness and efficiency. There can be only one reason the US continues to look past it. Politics.

[Bear Paws]

Cap and trade must die.
:free-happy-smileys-:free-happy-smileys- It ain't gonna happen so long as there are people that think the government is there to help and Socialism is the cure for poverty. Like yourself for one Steve. Keep laughing at the people banging the warning drums like they where some kind of over the edge nuts. Now that all of a sudden the threat they been warning about is to you..Now your on board??? You should have thought of this back years ago when we where telling you Algore was a One Worlder Socialist and OBama was the next Mussolini.

Keep thinking like this...don't come crying ...
No bear. Your the one who cant see the reality from your warped view of the world. It has nothing to do with some leftist agenda. It has to do with protecting Americans rights. Regardless of who the person is or what political view they have.

[stevenl]

:free-happy-smileys-:free-happy-smileys- It ain't gonna happen so long as there are people that think the government is there to help and Socialism is the cure for poverty. Like yourself for one Steve. Keep laughing at the people banging the warning drums like they where some kind of over the edge nuts. Now that all of a sudden the threat they been warning about is to you..Now your on board??? You should have thought of this back years ago when we where telling you Algore was a One Worlder Socialist and OBama was the next Mussolini.

Keep thinking like this...don't come crying ...

I do not believe socialism is the cure for poverty. I believe free enterprise is. I have always been against cap and trade and I knew Obama was for it. Im not a one issues voter. Its ok that I disagree with Obama on cap and trade adn health care and a few other issues. I disagreed with McPalin even more.

My biggest support went to Ron Paul, until you republicans decided he was not good enough and picked McPalin to run.

Of course my statement you quoted from CA was about the ACLU so the context does not apply here.

[Bear Paws]

I do not believe socialism is the cure for poverty. I believe free enterprise is. I have always been against cap and trade and I knew Obama was for it. Im not a one issues voter. Its ok that I disagree with Obama on cap and trade adn health care and a few other issues. I disagreed with McPalin even more.

My biggest support went to Ron Paul, until you republicans decided he was not good enough and picked McPalin to run.

Of course my statement you quoted from CA was about the ACLU so the context does not apply here.
It does apply. What I'm saying is that you like your Left when it behooves you. You know...a little ACLU here, a few Unions there, maybe soak the rich a little more over there.. Only when you see it might be deleterious to your life style your suddenly against the Left and you become a Righty. When its in your pocket or rights. Thats what issue voting gets you.

So what where these over arching important issues to you that Obama promised that you voted for??. THe ones that you would sell out your other principles and beliefs for..and then whine when he is going to stick Cap and Trade and health insurance to you. Those are the ones you where so willing to overlook for a couple cheap bones he threw you..? What was it? The anti Bush rhetoric... Oh yeah... You really stuck it to Bush didn't you..You and Bob. Unlike poor Bob, At least you gave up on the Bush going to jail promise. How are the other ones working out for you and Bob?
How did those fake bones work out for you? We told you..but you where willing to sell out for a cheap promise.

You guys sold out to the devil and now he is calling in the chits. They're Cap and tax and 2 trillions in health care just to start. Add that to the 3 trillion debt he stuck to you guys since taking office. . You and Sky are the ones that's going to be bleeding for this, Not me..I'm old..remember... I had no horse in this race but I still held to principle.

Who mentioned Palin? Now that you did. Republicans decided?? What kind of illogical reasoning is that? You wanted Ron Paul but you voted for Obama because we nominated Palin for VP? With logic like that you wonder why your in this predicament?

Speaking of Republicans... I see you issue voters are looking to the Republicans to pull your fat out of the fire once again.. But this time I think you guys went to far and we might not be able to kill Cap and Trade and the 2 trillion health insurance boondoggles for you. Sorry.. Your on your own this time. Bend over.... Start paying. You brought it on yourselves.

[stevenl]

It does apply. What I'm saying is that you like your Left when it behooves you. You know...a little ACLU here, a few Unions there, maybe soak the rich a little more over there.. Only when you see it might be deleterious to your life style your suddenly against the Left and you become a Righty. When its in your pocket or rights. Thats what issue voting gets you.

You nailed me 100% bear. I do not vote simply for the left or the right. I vote based on which I believe is correct on a given issue. I weigh all the issues and try to figure out which are more important to ME. I wish more voters would do that instead of just voting repub or dem because they are left or right. Instead I choose to look at the issues and vote based on that, and not on some preconceieved notion about right or left. I am LEFT on some issues and RIGHT on others. And Center on others. Im glad I am the way I am instead of a partisan hack who hears the word Dem and freaks out wondering when the commies are invading.


So what where these over arching important issues to you that Obama promised that you voted for??. THe ones that you would sell out your other principles and beliefs for..and then whine when he is going to stick Cap and Trade and health insurance to you. Those are the ones you where so willing to overlook for a couple cheap bones he threw you..? What was it? The anti Bush rhetoric... Oh yeah... You really stuck it to Bush didn't you..You and Bob. Unlike poor Bob, At least you gave up on the Bush going to jail promise. How are the other ones working out for you and Bob?
How did those fake bones work out for you? We told you..but you where willing to sell out for a cheap promise.

Mainly social issues. McCain and Obama are pretty darn close on social issues, Palin was the tipping point for me that secured my vote for Obama. As far as Healthcare McCain and Obama both had very similar plans so either way we were screwed. I didnt see any fake bones, Obama didnt sell me anything. He was exactly what he said he was. So far. There are a few things though I disagree with. He supports the budget which is way to high, he supports cap and trade and a form of nationalized health care. he does NOT support another stimulus which is good. Forgive me for not being a sheep and just following everything he says and agreeing with it like you guys seem to do. Instead I will form an opinion on each issue.


You guys sold out to the devil and now he is calling in the chits. They're Cap and tax and 2 trillions in health care just to start. Add that to the 3 trillion debt he stuck to you guys since taking office. . You and Sky are the ones that's going to be bleeding for this, Not me..I'm old..remember... I had no horse in this race but I still held to principle.

We knew that before voting for him.


Who mentioned Palin? Now that you did. Republicans decided?? What kind of illogical reasoning is that? You wanted Ron Paul but you voted for Obama because we nominated Palin for VP? With logic like that you wonder why your in this predicament?

Huh? Your making no sense. I said you republicans are the ones who didnt put Ron Paul on the ticket and instead put McCain (McPalin) on the ticket. If you guys would of put Ron Paul as your nominee I would of voted for him without a doubt. No questions asked. But instead you chose McCain, Whom I would of had no problem voting for him, it was a 50/50 toss up between the two but Palin was the tipping point.


Speaking of Republicans... I see you issue voters are looking to the Republicans to pull your fat out of the fire once again.. But this time I think you guys went to far and we might not be able to kill Cap and Trade and the 2 trillion health insurance boondoggles for you. Sorry.. Your on your own this time. Bend over.... Start paying. You brought it on yourselves.

Your going to be paying to. If these things get through.

[msmith198025]

Bear, do you vote straight republican no questions asked?

[msmith198025]

You nailed me 100% bear. I do not vote simply for the left or the right. I vote based on which I believe is correct on a given issue. I weigh all the issues and try to figure out which are more important to ME. I wish more voters would do that instead of just voting repub or dem because they are left or right. Instead I choose to look at the issues and vote based on that, and not on some preconceieved notion about right or left. I am LEFT on some issues and RIGHT on others. And Center on others. Im glad I am the way I am instead of a partisan hack who hears the word Dem and freaks out wondering when the commies are invading.




:thumbup:

[fallout2600]

A reactor is refueled by its waste. That is, almost all waste can be recycled. Around 95% of a spent fuel rod is natural uranium. Uranium was found in the ground and it can be put back in the ground. The radioactive part makes up only 5%, and half of that 5% can be recycled as fuel, specifically mixed-oxide fuel. The French have been doing this for 25 years now. After all these 25 years, the French store all their "waste" in one room under the Hague. The room is about the size of a basketball gym.

I bet you're wondering why you have never heard this before. It's another Carter-era screwup. There was a book published in 1974, The Curve of Binding Energy, that became very influential. It convinced Carter and others that plutonium could be stolen from nuclear plants to make bombs. It ain't true but solely on the basis of this misinformation, our country now has fifty thousand tons of nuclear "waste" that our government won't allow nuclear plants to reuse.

DOE policy is not to reprocess a highly reusable product, and there is no good reason for the policy. There is also no reason for Yucca Mountain, a very costly project. Don't forget, too, that nuclear "waste" is used in medical isotopes. Isotopes that we currently are forced to import because we are not allowed to use our own. It's lunacy. We're the only country in the world that doesn't recycle its nuclear byproducts, and nuclear energy is light-years ahead of any other energy source in cleanliness and efficiency. There can be only one reason the US continues to look past it. Politics.

BAM!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbup::thumbup:

[Bear Paws]

[QUOTE]You nailed me 100% bear. I do not vote simply for the left or the right. I vote based on which I believe is correct on a given issue. I weigh all the issues and try to figure out which are more important to ME. I wish more voters would do that instead of just voting repub or dem because they are left or right. Instead I choose to look at the issues and vote based on that, and not on some preconceieved notion about right or left. I am LEFT on some issues and RIGHT on others. And Center on others. Im glad I am the way I am instead of a partisan hack who hears the word Dem and freaks out wondering when the commies are invading.
I have never voted whats important to me except country. I ask again... What was it that Obama was selling that was so much more important to you than the good of the country. Or even more important than being chained to a socialist system of high deficits and taxes.

Yes, the democrats are led by their noses by the commies in their party ever since LBJ assassinated the last American Democrat and the left wing of the socialist party under the leadership of Moscow completed the infiltration of the Democrat party and our government that began in the 20s.. Obama was the final chapter. The last chink. Once he promised free lunch for 51% of the people the game was over. You bought in.



Mainly social issues. McCain and Obama are pretty darn close on social issues, Palin was the tipping point for me that secured my vote for Obama. As far as Healthcare McCain and Obama both had very similar plans so either way we were screwed. I didnt see any fake bones, Obama didnt sell me anything. He was exactly what he said he was. So far. There are a few things though I disagree with. He supports the budget which is way to high, he supports cap and trade and a form of nationalized health care. he does NOT support another stimulus which is good. Forgive me for not being a sheep and just following everything he says and agreeing with it like you guys seem to do. Instead I will form an opinion on each issue. The tipping point to vote for a progressive socialist Sal Alinsky disciple?!?!?! Then don't bitch about Cap and trade and the National Health insurance burden. You voted for those too when you voted for the man with the important to you issues...



We knew that before voting for him. Repeat.. Then stop whining. Start paying. I told you guys several months ago. I just hope I live long enough to watch you guys pay dearly for this. Its not a question of if you will its only when and how much you will..




Huh? Your making no sense. I said you republicans are the ones who didnt put Ron Paul on the ticket and instead put McCain (McPalin) on the ticket. If you guys would of put Ron Paul as your nominee I would of voted for him without a doubt. No questions asked. But instead you chose McCain, Whom I would of had no problem voting for him, it was a 50/50 toss up between the two but Palin was the tipping point. Like I said. Because of the VP choice you voted for the devil for president. That's real logic.. Mr. Spock your not..




Your going to be paying to. If these things get through. Nope.. All my retirement has been taxed and paid for already. Remember, I was self employed all my life so all my investments where pretty much post tax. I made money when this was still a relatively free country and the small business man wasn't dragged over the hot coals in the class warfare battle. What little I make in interest and tax free dividends are minor. Besides like I told Bob several months ago.. I can afford it with out changing my life style much if at all... Can you?

[stevenl]

How can anyone debate with someone who thinks the russians are still taking over the country.. Its beyond me. Bear this election has really took you off your rocker.

ill respond point by point later, when my head stops spinning.

[froggigger]

How can anyone debate with someone who thinks the russians are still taking over the country.. Its beyond me. Bear this election has really took you off your rocker.

ill respond point by point later, when my head stops spinning.

Your head stops spinning?? :eek: :p

[stevenl]

Come on frog even you got to admit bear has been way more militant and off his game as of late.

[froggigger]

Come on frog even you got to admit bear has been way more militant and off his game as of late.

There is a lot of truth in a lot of what Bear says but it will never be accepted by the government-educated minions. By design. What is happening is inevitable. The USA is already beyond its life expectancy. Never forget this Alexander Tyler quote. It holds a lot of truth that most choose to turn a blind eye to.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."


We're a hell of a lot closer to the end of that quote than the beginning.

[fallout2600]

There is a lot of truth in a lot of what Bear says but it will never be accepted by the government-educated minions. By design. What is happening is inevitable. The USA is already beyond its life expectancy. Never forget this Alexander Tyler quote. It holds a lot of truth that most choose to turn a blind eye to.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."


We're a hell of a lot closer to the end of that quote than the beginning.

Totally agree frog! See my signature :)

[froggigger]

Totally agree frog! See my signature :)

I never had any doubt about you. :hatsoff:

[msmith198025]

Totally agree frog! See my signature :)

I can agree with that as well

Good post frog

[Bear Paws]

Your head stops spinning?? :eek: :p:free-happy-smileys-:free-happy-smileys- Damn it.. coffee everywhere.:Shh:

[Bear Paws]

How can anyone debate with someone who thinks the russians are still taking over the country.. Its beyond me. Bear this election has really took you off your rocker.

ill respond point by point later, when my head stops spinning. Please don't try to diminish me with the condescending Russian comment if you don't understand what I'm saying. You only make yourself look bad. Obviously it is beyond you...

It may appear that way.. Probably because this election was probably the most disappointed I have ever been in the American people I have ever experienced. Ever. And I've had a few doozers in my life time. That even includes the hippie spitting on the soldiers madness of the 60s.and 70s.

Since as a young kid growing up in NYC and watching the Mayday parades and listening to my parents friends with numbers tattooed on their forearms. Hearing the stories of incredible hardships endured under national socialism and fascist socialism from the brave souls that fought against it and escaped it.. To my experiences in Vietnam trying to help innocent gentle people stay free, to my years of helping people escape the bleak darkness of Communism of the Eastern Bloc countries. Oh it was dark and bleak. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise that never was there past the tourist haunts and would want to describe it as a utopia.. I had faith in my country as the Bastian of democracy and freedom. A safe place from tyranny, oppression. Where truth justice and the American way was the only way.

I had great faith and trust in my fellow countrymen that they had principles and would not sell out my country to the very thing I along with so many others, some that gave everything, fought so hard and risked so much for others to escape from and to keep from coming to our shores. I feel betrayed and discouraged. I feel I've been sold out for a cheap trick. Yeah the very thing Frogger and Tyler warned about but I didn't want to believe the American people where capable of. We went from fighting Socialism and Communism to practically being one, all in my life time. I hope we can see our way back...and soon. This is not what you think it is. Its not utopia..Its a trap.. Ask anyone that has been there and managed to escaped its tyranny...

Right now we are somewhere between apathy and dependency. You don't want to see whats next.....bondage. It always is.. why would this time be any different??

[HD MM]

There is a lot of truth in a lot of what Bear says but it will never be accepted by the government-educated minions. By design. What is happening is inevitable. The USA is already beyond its life expectancy. Never forget this Alexander Tyler quote. It holds a lot of truth that most choose to turn a blind eye to.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."


We're a hell of a lot closer to the end of that quote than the beginning.

Excellent quote Frog. Thanks for sharing.